Knights Templar Discussion Forum

by **Anonymous** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:45 am

Thanks Templario,

about cistercian :shock:

monks i read in few books and i must veiw!

Why 1120? Barber says 1119, others 1118, Beigent/Leigh/Lincoln announce 1114.

by **Templario** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:26 am

about cistercian monks i read in few books and i must veiw!

If you could find a real reference (chronicle or history) from the time of the Templars (12th or 13th century) that clearly mentions the origin of these two first Templars, it would be very useful!

Why 1120? Barber says 1119, others 1118, Beigent/Leigh/Lincoln announce 1114.

I was referring to the time the Templars were given the al-Aqsa mosque, not the date of the foundation of the Order. It looks like they didn't start getting donations from the king of Jerusalem and the canons of the Holy Sepulchre until after the council of Nablus (1120). It's probably at that time that they received the mosque and the esplanade of Temple Mount.

by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:07 am

Thanks,

About cistercian monks i saw in Guardians of the Holy Grail from Mark Amaru Pinkham, about Gondemar and other person, not in your list of first nine, without piece of evidence. Author wrote the book with help from Scotish Knights Templar and found with Ian Sinclair The International Order of Gnostic Templars!

Hugues de Champagne is this count of Champagne? In first time i see him in list of founder templars!

Thanks again!

by **Templario** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 4:49 am

Perhaps Gondemar was a Portuguese Cistercian monk (considering the close relationship between the Cistercians and the Templars of Portugal made obvious by other references...). I never saw a more ancient source saying it though...

Hugues de Chapagne was count of Champagne, yes.

by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:51 am

OK,
there is other lists of first nine templars

Hugues de Payens,

Godfrey de Saint-Omer,

Godfrey Bisol,

Payen de Montdidier,

Archembaud de Saint Aignant,

Andrre Montbard,

Gondemar,

Hugues de Champagne,

Jacques de Rossal

from Sinclair clan website

Hughes de Payns

Godefroy de Saint-Omer

André de Montbard

Payen de Montdidier

Archambaud de Saint-Amand

Gondemare

Rosal

Godefroy

Geoffroy Bisol

from OSMTH website and L. Charpentier. The Mysteries of Chartres Cathedral Chapter 6

Rosal is the other cistercian monk with Gondemar

About Count of Champagne - Hugues de Champagne, did he join Order around 1124?

Thanks Again!

by **Templario** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:03 am

The list of the OSMTH is correct. There were three additional nobles who joined the Order during its first few years:

- Fulk V of Anjou joined the Order for a year as an associate in 1120.

- Robert de Craon joined the Order in 1123.

- Hugues de Champagne may have been instrumental in convincing a few knights of the Holy Sepulchre to get some kind of militia started around 1114; he joined the Order only in 1124 but he may have joined it sooner if he had not gone back to Champagne in 1115 to fulfill his responsibilities as a count.

Whether these people can be considered as founding members is questionable. On the other hand William of Tyre mentioned that the Templars were nine at the beginning and stayed that way for nine years. We know it's not right since more knights joined the ranks of the Order during the early 1120s. Actually another chronicler, Michael the Syrian, said that the Templars were thirty at the beginning.

So perhaps the knights who founded the Order between 1114 and 1120 were nine at the "beginning", but it's obvious that more nobles joined their ranks afterward.

by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:46 am

Yes, thats true

Fulk - future King of Jerusalem
Robert - second Grand Master
Hugues de Champagne - power behind the Order

OK

You say that Gondemar was a Portuguese Cistercian monk, any information about Rosal and Godefroy?

Thanks Templario!

by **Templario** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:21 pm

You say that Gondemar was a Portuguese Cistercian monk, any information about Rosal and Godefroy?

Nope!...

by **Anonymous** » Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:31 pm

Templario wrote:Perhaps Gondemar was a Portuguese Cistercian monk (considering the close relationship between the Cistercians and the Templars of Portugal made obvious by other references...). I never saw a more ancient source saying it though...

If that is truth, founders of the Order are not only from France and Flanders!

Why you thing Gondemar was a Portuguese Cistercian monk?

Thanks Templario, You do a Great job!!!

by **Templario** » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:48 am

Why you thing Gondemar was a Portuguese Cistercian monk?

Thanks templar1307!

It comes from a book "Acta Templarorium", but I wouldn't trust it completely...

by **Anonymous** » Mon May 22, 2006 3:27 am

What about templar named Enrico or something similar in Albon, Cartulaire general?

by **Templario** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:38 am

There was a man by the name of Enneco (Ennecho) mentioned in a 1129 charter, but he was the chaplain of King Alfonso I. He is not listed as a Templar.

by **Anonymous** » Mon May 22, 2006 4:51 am

Maybe he is mentioned with Robert round 1124 ?

by **Templario** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:57 am

That's correct... I missed it the first time I looked. There was a Templar named Henrico. He is listed with brother Robert in a 1125 charter of donation in Flanders. Interesting...

by **Anonymous** » Mon May 22, 2006 6:48 am

Wait a minute... From first nine we now have minimum 13 templars

before The Council of Troyes and What the two templars do in Flanders in 1125?

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