The Original Nine Knights.

[Anonymous]

Can anyone tell me names of the 9 Knights that were the original nine to go to Jerusalem, to start the order. I have managed to find only 5.

Would appreciate it.

[Templario]

Hugues de Payns

Gaufred de St. Omer

Payen de Montdidier

Archambaud de St. Amand

Hugues de Champagne

Robert de Craon

Andre de Montbard

Gondemar

Gaufred Bisol

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the names of the original NINE.

[Anonymous]

Andre de Montbard is mentioned by Guillaume de Tyr, but he was not among the original nine. He entered the order between 1125 - 1129. In short, academics now agree that the Templar origins lay in the religious center of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, where they formed (an unorganised) group together with the Hospitallers and the canons of the Sepulcher. At about 1120, the Templars either went their own way or where thrown out by the canons or the Hospitallers (Read: Ernoul). At 1120 there were far more than 9 Templars. My guess is that Guillaume just tried to picture the difficult years during and after their creation, the number is less significant.
Thanks
JAN

[Anonymous]

I just checked the Cartulaire du Temple.

So it is possible that Andre de Montbard was among the first founding Templars.

The letter you are referring to is doc. N° I, dated between the 28th of june 1119 and the 15th of october 1126 and mentions the Fratres Templi Andream et Gundemarum. It is tempting to believe that Andream is in fact Andre de Montbard, but there is proof that he did not join the order before 1129. In 1129 he testifies a donation to the abbey of Molesmes in France. Read : BULST-HIELE M.-L. Sacrae Domus Militiae Templi Hierosolymitani Magistri - Untersuchungen zur Geschichte des Tempelordens 1118/19-1314, Göttingen : Vandenhoeck&Ruprecht, 1974, p. 58, note n°4. The original can be found in the Cartulaires de l'abbaye de Molesme, 2, 1911, I, n° 263. This Andream could be another Templar, one of the first. Possibly Guillaume de Tyr made the same mistake as we did and took this Andream for the later Andre de Montbard.

do you have any source showing they were more than 9?

Yes, if we do not take into account the "original" Andre or Andream. In the cartulaire, doc. n° III, Roberti, militis Templi testifies in a donation made by Bernard, bischop of Nazareth. This donation is dated on the 20 th of 1125. The original document is in the archives of the order of Malta.

In the same cartulaire du Temple, the donation made by Baudoin Brochet in ca. 1125, mentions this Robert again, together with a certain Henri. Doc. n° IV states the militibus Hierosolymitani Templi, Henrico et R(oberto) ... I am tempted to think that those two are Robert de Furnes (Veurne in Flanders) and Henri d'Arras (Arras, now in Northern France), but I don't have proof.

There should be another document, dated in 1126 that states the names Jean, Thibaud and Pierre as Templars. I can't seem to find it that quickly, so I will get back on this.

And let's not forget Hugues, the count of Champagne. And of course there must have been quite some milites ad terminum or temporary knights.

Thanks
Jan[/i]

[Anonymous]

I agree that not mentionning Fr. Templi or Milites Templi behind the name of person does not means that he wasn't a Templar at that time. Also on Hugues de Payns, who can be traced as magister militum Templi in 1125.

On the other hand, Laurent Dailliez studied the family de Montbar in France and states that Andre was born in 1103, which means that he would have been extremely young to be among the founders of the order. At the time that Hughes de Payns went back to the Holy Land in 1114 to lay the foundations of the order or mingle in the Holy Sepulchre group, Andre must have been a child. (Read: DAILLIEZ L. Les Templiers, gouvernement et institutions, ...).

If you're right about the charter in the Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani, we have a problem. In the Cartulaire du Temple, n°48, Robertus Burgundio (better known as Robert de Craon) is mentioned as seneschal of the Templar knights : in presencia Rotberti senescalch ... Also in n°52 : Robbertus, qui senescallus Templi fuerat (also dated in 1132). Two seneschalls at the same time?
If Andre was seneschal of the order in 1126, why was he overtaken by no less then 3 masters (Robert de Craon, Evrard des Barres and Bernard de Tremelay) before he was nominated? According to Bulst-Thiele, Andre de Montbard appears in the same Regesta Regni Hierosolymitania as "Andreas de Muntbar dapifer [=knight] ...". If he had the rank of seneschal, surely that should have been mentioned.

Is it possible to scan the page and publish it on this website? I would really like to see this ...

Perhaps we can find more in the genealogy of the de Montbards :
Laurent j. Seigneurs de Montbard et seigneurs de Ricey in Mélanges Saint Bernard. Dijon, 1954, p. 9-16. I don't have this document, but I will ask for it in a regional library/archive in France. If Andre was born in 1103 as Dailliez says, Andres chances to be a co-founder will drop.

Templario, thanks for your information. This is top-level debate that can amount to new views, more information and revelations. Thanks.
Jan

[Templario]

Interesting debate indeed!

On the other hand, Laurent Dailliez studied the family de Montbar in France and states that Andre was born in 1103, which means that he would have been extremely young to be among the founders of the order. At the time that Hughes de Payns went back to the Holy Land in 1114 to lay the foundations of the order or mingle in the Holy Sepulchre group, Andre must have been a child. (Read: DAILLIEZ L. Les Templiers, gouvernement et institutions, ...).

The father of Andreas de Montbard was Bernard I, Lord of Montbard. He and his wife Humberge first appeared in the records in 1065 (see Chronique de St. Pierre le Vif de Sens p. 126). It means they were already married at that time. Although Laurent Dailliez is a reliable source, I doubt Andre de Montbard was born in 1103 (about forty years after his parents got married...???). He must have been born at least 10 or 15 years before 1103. In her study on the Lords of Montbard, it is surprising that Constance Brittain Bouchard doesn't mention the date of birth of Andre de Montbard; if there was a source containing this information, she would have mentioned it... (see Sword, Miter and Cloister, Nobility and the Church in Burgundy, 980-1198, p.334).

[Anonymous]

Good point ...
I guess we will have to contact a local historian to clarify everything. I have done the same for Godefroy de Saint-Omer and with succes.

Could you manage to review the Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani and check if we have indeed two seneschals at app. the same time ?
A short review :
ALBON n°52 : Robbertus, qui senescallus Templi fuerat in 1132
Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani, I, charter #114) mentions an Andreas who was Senescalcus in 1126

I have checked Albon personally, can you please check the Regesta?

Thanks
JAN

[Templario]

Jan, here is the text of charter #114 contained in the Regesta Regni Hierosolymitani:

[Anonymous]

On the other hand, Laurent Dailliez studied the family de Montbar in France and states that Andre was born in 1103, which means that he would have been extremely young to be among the founders of the order.
Jan

Do not make the mistake most modern people make concerning age/youth in medieval times. In 1119 Andre would have been 16. It is a normal age for him to be knighted (if his father was of sufficient rank or his service on the battlefield warrented it) or serve as sergeant/senior squier to a important baron. At this age most children of noble would fight along side the rest of the cavalry. It is also the time they would start their married life.

[Dashinvaine (GN)]

Given that (unless I am confused) de Montbard was the half brother of Bernard of Clairvaux's mother, I doubt he could have been so young. He was actually Bernard's uncle.

[Templario]

Andre de Montbard could not possibly have been born in 1103 anyway. He was born at least 10 or 15 years earlier (see above).

[Anonymous]

Hello again,

Thanks for publishing the charter, it clarifies some things. In fact, as we can see, Andreas is mentioned as senescalcus, not as seneschall of the militia of of the Temple. This could in fact be a "knight of the world" and not necessarily a Templar knight. The royals had their seneschalls, as well as high rank crusaders who visited the Holy Land (f.i. Count of Flanders). In 1126, their could have been several knights with this rank in the Levant. From Robert de Craon, we are 100% sure that he was seneschall of the order in 1132, so at that time Andre couldn't have been seneschall.

Furthermore, it seems that Saint Bernard wrote a letter in 1141 to pope Innocent II asking to bless a family-member of his who was going through his "noviciat" in the Temple order at that time. (Read : Armand Ravelet, t.II, p.26. - Letter n°350). And then, in 1144, Saint Bernard seems to have written a letter to queen Mélisende where he mentions his uncle Andre, who has "recently become a Templar".

This info comes from another discussion-platform (in French);
http://www.insolite.asso.fr/plateforme/OT-014.htm

If the info is right, Andre de Montbard was not amongst the founders. When reading Guillaume de Tyr, and finding an "Andre", the link to the later master is easily made. But if the contents of the letters of Saint-Bernard are correct, we have only two options :
1. There was no Andre among the founders
2. There was an Andre among the founders, but it was not Andre de Montbard.

I have no access to the letters of Saint-Bernard, so I can't check these at short notice. If someone could, I would be very grateful.

Thanks

JAN

[Templario]

Jan, I am afraid we still don't have a case...

Letter #350 (1141) of St. Bernard says:

"The young man who will give you this letter is said to be a brave and valiant knight; he is going to Jerusalem to fight battles that are better than in our regions. He wants me to bless his holy enterprise, to honor him with your support and to help him with your prayers. He is my parent, or, as the prophet says, I must have a vested interest in the members of my family."

There is no mention of Andre de Montbard nor of the Templars in that letter! St. Bernard's parent could be any member of his family (on his father's or mother's side) who went to the Crusades...

Several other letters (#206, #289, 354 and #355) are addressed by St. Bernard to Melisende, the Queen of Jerusalem.

In letter #206 (no date), Bernard recommends a young man (his "parent") to the Queen; in the same letter, he mentions his uncle Andreas who told him about the good deeds of the Queen; obviously the young man is not Andreas (who must have been at least 40 years old, assuming an early date of 1129). There is no word on when Andreas joined the Templars.

In letter #289 (1154), St. Bernard again says that his uncle Andreas mentioned the peaceful way Melisende governs Jerusalem and the support she gives to the Templars. Again, there is no word on when Andreas joined the Templars.

In letter 354 (1142), he doesn't mention Andreas.

In letter 355 (1142), St. Bernard recommends Premontrean monks to the Queen and doesn't mention his uncle Andreas either.

[Valori]

Templario and Jan, I know I don't know much on the subject as a whole, and I'm definetly no expert like you both, but I thought I'd say thank you very much for your knowledge and expertise because we're finding this debate especially interesting and educational!